How many turns lock to lock in non power steering is good?

leaky

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I started looking at this way back for my 32 Holland and it was a confusing detail I just didn't need to worry about. Now I gotta figure it out.

Long story short when I looked at how these boats were coming out of the shop, they were being setup for about a 60 to 70 degree rudder sweep, seemed short to me...

Upon reading up on others recommendations (one is a great article for beginners at Seaboard) it sounds indeed 90 degrees (ie 45 one way or other) isn't a bad idea for a sweep, which means a shorter tiller arm or longer cylinder travel than the regular formula, which can mess with mechanical advantage.

Going to let Seastar spec the parts for me, they have a form I will send in, but one item I'd like to have a feeling for is how many turns on the helm is good? I am thinking I want 5 to 6 with a 90 degree sweep and non power steering. Any thoughts on that? Also will be a fairly modest wheel due to space constraints. Thanks!
 

cb34

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Had "non power" in my 30SS. Brutal around the dock even with a large diameter wheel. For simplicity I added an electric assist pump, night and day difference.
 

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35-35 is what designers recommend but I don't suppose 10 degrees more would hurt anything . My lock to lock is 3.5 turns VERY easy to turn both docking, at speed, & on AP. Wagner, no power. Rudder very close to hull plus dam on bottom, 15% balance, wedge shape.
 

leaky

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35-35 is what designers recommend but I don't suppose 10 degrees more would hurt anything . My lock to lock is 3.5 turns VERY easy to turn both docking, at speed, & on AP. Wagner, no power. Rudder very close to hull plus dam on bottom, 15% balance, wedge shape.
Wow that's interesting on only 3.5.

Seaboard is saying 35-35 twin engine, 45-45 single, but the original formula given to me was only producing I want to say 30-30, just seems to be giving up a lot of maneuverability for a change that's basically free.
 

leaky

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Had "non power" in my 30SS. Brutal around the dock even with a large diameter wheel. For simplicity I added an electric assist pump, night and day difference.
Thanks, that's what I am trying to avoid, want to make sure I get the ratio right.
 

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I have heard of people using 45-45 and at docking speeds the rudder may not stall. I should clarify that my lower helm has a 30" wheel and is 3.5 turns the upper helm has a 16" wheel and 5 turns. The upper wheel is directly on a Wagner pump and the lower wheel is chained to the same model pump and geared to give 3.5 turns the AP is chained to the same pump at some other ratio, I forget what.
Over the years, I have made 4 different rudders for my boat, airfoil, wedge, split wedge, and contra split wedge. All close to the hull and with dam on the bottom. At this point I am quite sure I have the best steering system for MY boat.
 

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Brooksie

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Oh, as an aside, use a piece of cutless bearing in your skeg bar to accept the shaft butt, can reduce some really annoying noises.
 

leaky

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Don't forget you rudder stops. You like if your tiller falls off, Loose your clevis pin, Ram loosens up etc. Couple of stops cost nothing and without them could be hundreds. :)
Haven't forgotten but a detail I have no experience with, what do you recommend?
 

leaky

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I have heard of people using 45-45 and at docking speeds the rudder may not stall. I should clarify that my lower helm has a 30" wheel and is 3.5 turns the upper helm has a 16" wheel and 5 turns. The upper wheel is directly on a Wagner pump and the lower wheel is chained to the same model pump and geared to give 3.5 turns the AP is chained to the same pump at some other ratio, I forget what.
Over the years, I have made 4 different rudders for my boat, airfoil, wedge, split wedge, and contra split wedge. All close to the hull and with dam on the bottom. At this point I am quite sure I have the best steering system for MY boat.
What is rudder stalling?

I had a conversation with Glenn about increasing the radius and basically what I got was the boat would turn a bit more, couldn't get a statement on what the max was out of him.

Could go a happy medium, 80 whatever, just read a couple places including here 90 is good so figured go that way..

 

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The contra split wedge gave a little more speed but since mine is a slow boat it wasn't really measurable. The spit wedge gave the best steering both by hand and on AP and that is what I have now. These changes were made quite a while ago so to put numbers on it now would be a guess. But bring your rudder right up to within 1/4" of the hull and add a dam to the bottom, no matter what rudder, and you will feel a noticable difference in power. Then by changing leverage/gearing and/or balance factor you can reduce your effort but retain the power you have developed.
You may have guessed that I don't beleive in flat plate rudders and may be a bit of a tinkerer..
 

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Brooksie

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Being a tinkerer is a good thing. At least you know what you have and how to make something preform better/to your liking. I like the airfoil because of the theory and i can see it work on a stunt plane. Not sure it does good at 8 to 10 kts. though.
Well, lift is lift, and when you turn your rudder you create an angle of attack and create lift which pulls/lifts that side of the boat, turning it. The airfoil also has the least resistance through the water when amidship
 

leaky

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The easiest way would be stops for the tiller. It would be a very unlikely your tiller would come loose. (good key, tight and maybe a keeper on top) . Depending on your set up blocks could be glassed in anywhere you wanted them. Personally i would try the 90 degree included angle and you could always add and glass to blocks or add and bolt. JMO. My old man use to just make two oak blocks and bolt em through the hull. :p
Ok tiller stops definitely sound easy, had one person recommended a piece of stainless cable made so if the rudder tries to go 90 it comes tight. My tiller arm is 90 degrees to the length of the boat with the rudder straight, basically a piece of cable would go from the end of the tiller to stringer.
 

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